The Technology Revolutionizing Chronic Pain with Celine Tien

Join Kosta and his guest: Celine Tien, Founder and CEO of Flowly, the first interactive platform to make pain management accessible, and address all parts of pain: physical, psychological, and social.

In this episode: how virtual reality is transforming the treatment and management of chronic pain, the power of mental awareness in creating life changing habit transformations and how Celine Tien is revolutionizing the use of virtual reality in the long-term care market.

Watch this episode on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZdTPJChgTw

Find out more about Celine and Flowly:
https://www.flowly.world/

Find out more about Kosta Yepifantsev:
http://kostayepifantsev.com/

Transcript

Celine Tien: 0:04

A lot of people say, "oh, pain is in your brain" That is, that is true. But then a lot of times when you say that it feels marginalizing because it feels like oh, that means it's not real. That's actually completely incorrect pain is extremely well, if you feel it, it is real. Your brain is part of your body, right? There's actually no separation even if we linguistically like to say, oh, brain and body. Actually, we all live in the same body, including our brain.

Caroline Moore: 0:30

Welcome to Now or Never Long-Term Care Strategy with Kosta Yepifantsev a podcast for all those seeking answers and solutions in the long term care space. This podcast is designed to create resources, start conversations and bring awareness to the industry that will inevitably impact all Americans. Here's your host Kosta Yepifantsev:

Kosta Yepifantsev: 0:52

Hey, y'all, this is Kosta. And today, I'm here with my guest, Celine Tien, founder and CEO of Flowly, the first interactive platform to make pain management accessible, and address all parts of pain, the physical, psychological, and social. Today, we're talking about how virtual reality is transforming the treatment and management of chronic pain. So saline, let's get started. Tell us what is Flowly? How does it work? And who did you create Flowly for?

Celine Tien: 1:22

Yeah, so thanks for having me first, absolutely. Flowly, is an mobile app that is designed for people with chronic pain. What it does is it combines virtual reality, and something called biofeedback therapy, to teach you how to control your own heart rate and heart rate variability, to feel more in control of your nervous system. And when you feel like you're able to take more control of your nervous system, you can start to address a lot of things around the physical, psychological, and even social aspects of chronic pain and pain in general. And so we what, how it works is we actually send you a kit that includes a VR headset and a heart rate sensor, you slip both of those things on super easy to use. And then you enter these five to 15 minute sessions where we collect your heart rate. And you're actually able to see that heart rate converted into these beautiful visualizations in VR, like sitting on the beach with the roar lights above you or wandering through the bamboo forest. And then at the same time, you're learning through the breathwork and the heart rate variability, how to control your nervous system and send your body into that rest digest or relaxation mode.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 2:33

How did you go from? Obviously, you have a background in film, and you wanted to be an actor. That's what we talked about prior to starting the episode, like how did you go from that to wanting to contribute to fixing chronic pain and also doing it in kind of like a holistic way?

Celine Tien: 2:55

Yeah. A lot of people were like, what, why? Why? How did you go from entertainment to health care. So I actually grew up, my father was the former chair of neuroradiology. At Duke, he's a doctor. My mom and my dad are both in biotech, I grew up around medicine and healthcare. So it's actually a space I'm very familiar with. But I think more importantly, I grew up around pancreatic cancer, which you may know is extremely painful, especially in the terminal stages. So pain management is something that was always very top of mind for me, something that I me and my family always really cared about. And then, fast forward, I was one of those rebellious kids, I was like, I'm not going to healthcare, I want to do my own path. In my first passion was always about storytelling. And so for me, storytelling came in the, you know, in the platform of writing and acting, and I, my brother and I were both child actors growing up in film and television. But I think I realized that in acting, you don't get a lot of control over the final product a lot of times, and so when I went to study at Yale, I actually ended up behind the scenes, and ended up at DreamWorks Animation in China in the US in development. And that's kind of where I got really involved in virtual reality, and looking at VR for content and entertainment and experiences. And in that journey, I discovered that this virtual reality we were using for like gaming and animation had actually already been researched and applied since the 1980s for pain management. Oh, wow. So that was like a crazy revelation. That was an intersection of two my big passions. And immediately I went to my father, I was like, Wait, have you heard of this? You know, can you use this for therapy? Turns out you can. And we started working with the best doctors in the space and really looking into it. And it just kind of snowballed from there and into really investigating how VR could be an accessible technology to address pain.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 4:56

And so this kind of explosion in VR tech and you said it's been going on since the 80s. In your opinion, like why do you think that more hospital systems healthcare systems healthcare in general, why do you think they don't incorporate this type of function into their way of patient treatment?

Celine Tien: 5:16

Yeah, there's a few reasons. So if you imagine the 1980s version of virtual reality, it was like a monster hardware, you would have to be that was set up for VR, you know, it was like the size of three people lengthwise, it was huge and massive and very bulky. And so I think the hardware itself was an inhibiting factor that made it hard to use. Second, it was very expensive. And third, you would need like a specialist or someone that was very trained in VR to actually administer it. So there's quite a few factors, I was making VR very hard to actually adopt. And this is actually the same with biofeedback, which is the other core type of training, we incorporated slowly, which is the ability to collect information about your body through sensors, show it to you and actually train you on how to control your body. Biofeedback has also been used since the 80s. But it is also expensive, you need a specialist and hard to access. So I think when I started getting into the space, and developing and founding slowly, we were kind of very lucky, and that we're getting to the point where the technology could really get condensed, and we could really work to get the costs down to make it super accessible.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 6:31

Who do you think is going to benefit most from this technology, and then also walk us through the new client experience?

Celine Tien: 6:38

Yeah, so I mean, my team obviously designed this and our mission is to help people manage pain and alleviate painful experiences. So it's for people living with chronic pain. However, in that journey, you know, we've gone through some case studies and NIH back controlled clinical trials, we really went science first, focus on that chronic pain population. But interestingly, along the way, we attracted a lot of people, sort of with comorbidities, or in other spaces, because as you probably know, it's very intersectional. So people with high impact anxiety, people with trouble sleeping, and I think very important to us, is a lot of caregivers in the economy started flocking to Flowly to really address not just their client, patient or loved ones, chronic issues, but their own. And so now we serve a lot of caregivers as well to help with their mental and physical health.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 7:34

When you are a new client that's going to receive one of these kits, right there is a there's like a membership feature that you can subscribe to, with slowly. So talk a little bit about, okay, you get the box, right, and you get the VR goggles out, and all the other things that are in the kit, to let us know about that. But then also explain how the membership works. And what's included.

Celine Tien: 8:02

The way fully works is today, if you're interested in full, you'd go to our website, you would subscribe to our monthly or annual membership. It's $45 a month that anyone is 50% off of that. So most people actually go annual, and it includes the kit. So we send you a kit right to your home. And the kit includes a VR headset and a heart rate sensor. So you don't need anything prior to fully to get started. And when you decide you're ready, you get yourself in a comfortable position on your bed or on your couch, which is how most people do it. They slip on and they actually put their phone into the VR headset, which is what makes it so light and easy to use. And then they slip a heart rate sensor onto their finger or their ear. And then they're able to go into five to 10 minute sessions where it feels like you're immersed on the beach with a roar lights above you, or you're in a intergalactic space station. And it's all these different beautiful, cool environments. And at the same time, you actually see a heart rate graph of your real time heart rate. So and through the breathing and exercises through the voiceover and music, we're actually teaching you to control your heart rate in real time. And as you do better and better, your body shifts into what we call the parasympathetic nervous system, your rest and digest mode and the world around you and VR changes. So more lights light up in the sky. More plants grow more flowers grow to very viscerally teach you how to control your body. And then after that session, you can actually go into your data portal and see both survey and physiological data so you can actually see how your heart rate has been progressing, other metrics and even relaxation scores. Most people do these sessions and bed or on their couches like leaned back and our members we call our members heroes. They range from in their early 20s to our oldest ces 86. And he does it three times a day. So he uses VR more than his grandkids,

Kosta Yepifantsev: 10:05

do you think that virtual reality is going to improve our long term quality of life, and more importantly, allow our aging populations to reclaim a sense of independence and adventure that had been previously lost?

Celine Tien: 10:20

I do think that virtual reality will play an increasingly important role in our health, health applications and therapies. And one of those big applications I do think is for the aging population, and older folks fully was actually part of AARP innovation labs. And we were really looking at how slowly could impact the 50 plus 60 plus communities and make VR very accessible to us. I mean, like I said, VR has been around longer than most people have thought that it's possible. And it's been researched from everything for addressing PTSD to pain management anxiety, to vertigo. So it has incredible potential and the therapeutic space, I think the biggest challenge is how do we make virtual reality easy to use for everybody. And I can even tell you, in our initial case studies, you know, we spent a couple of years totally focused just on testing, because initially, we tried to use on this headset called the Oculus go. And it was really hard for our older population, older heroes to use. It was like, you know, as you kind of need very good dexterity to be able to type in VR use the controllers, etc. And what we found, was that just giving them a simpler headset, yes, it's more low fidelity. Yes, it's cheaper, it's a little bit lighter. But it makes it so much easier and accessible to us that, like I said, we have people in their 80s and 90s, using VR now. And so I think that's going to be, you know, one of the biggest challenges is making the technology really accessible. And that's what we've been working on.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 12:02

So I've got two questions. First, I'm curious about the psychological pain that people face. And I know, talking about pain, everybody always assumes physical. And they always, they usually assume like opioids as a treatment for pain. This technology is meant to curb that practice. But secondary to that with regards to psychological pain, how often are you seeing VR applications to try and treat individuals who have experienced trauma? You know, various things like that? Well, first

Celine Tien: 12:38

off, almost every hero that we work with has some form of experience of trauma, of anxiety and depression of you know, all these mental health disorders. So it is a big, big, big, if not one of the core things that we focus on. In terms of opioids. In our NIH backed randomized controlled clinical trials, we actually look at the reduction of opioid usage as a one of our endpoints. And we are considered under the National Institute on Drug Abuse a opioid sparing opioid sparing opioid weaning device. So that is another big component of our research. Yeah. For us, in thinking about sort of the psychological pain that we'd like to call the aspect of it. You know, a lot of people say, Oh, pain is in your brain. That is, that is true. But then a lot of times when you say that it feels marginalizing, because it feels like oh, that means it's not real. That's actually completely incorrect. Pain is extremely real. If you feel it, it is real, your brain is part of your body, right? There's actually no separation, even if we linguistically like to say, oh, brain and body, actually, we all live in the same body, including our brain. And so one of those key things is learning how to control your nervous system, so that you can basically toggle those pain signals being sent to your brain, from safety from threat to safety. So pain really happens when you feel when you might have an injury or perceived injury. And so your body's trying to protect you, right? So it's sending a warning signal to your brain and saying, Hey, there's something you need to be aware of, you need to move your body into threat mode, fight or flight mode so that you can address this injury. What a lot of times happens is that your body no longer has an injury or it never was a true injury in the first place. And it's still sending these pain signals to your brain. That's why we focus so much on the nervous system because it can be key to learning how to switch the signal from sending the signals of threatened alarm to sending signals of safety and relaxation. And as you can imagine, this nervous system is incredibly interconnected from physiological symptoms of like your heart rate increasing sweating more feeling this physical pain as well as the emotional and psychological aspect of like sending anxiety and depression and you know all All these different threads signals to your brain. And so when we look at pain holistically, it really means being able to address the physical pain, the psychological one, and even feelings of social isolation that come with the pain experience, all through the nervous system.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 15:17

So when I envision VR, okay, especially in the long term care space, I imagine kind of like the metaverse, a community of individuals, whether they are elderly, or share a specific physical disability, or maybe have to deal with chronic pain on a daily basis, as a way to sort of build community over a disc around a disability so that they can better understand and have a feeling of support so that they're not in this alone, you know, because I mean, long term care, it's in the name, it's a long term disability, so they're going to be battling with it for most likely the rest of their life. Do you see slowly evolving into having those types of interactions within the metaverse? Could you speak a little bit more on that?

Celine Tien: 16:10

Absolutely. We think about social socialization twofold. And I'll start with a story from one of our case study patients Bob, he came in when he was in his 60s, he actually had just come out of palliative care. So he was, you know, basically at the brink of death when we met. And he was shot when he was 16 in the back, which created on chronic pain, basically for him for the rest of his life. And he came in on a wheelchair. And he had he was on a wheelchair because his foot was inflamed and swollen three times the size of his actual fee. He actually couldn't wear normal shoes, all due to neuropathic pain. And he also has not seen his family for decades, because he was on such high doses of opioids. He lost his driver license. He couldn't really like go to socialize, go to parties. He was extremely isolated. So we worked with him using slowly three times a week for about two months. And by the end of the two months, he actually walked in himself on a single point cane. So he was out of the wheelchair. And his blood work came back improved. He actually got his driver's license back and he reduced his fentanyl patch usage by 50%. And it was just a really incredible case. And a lot of people are like, Oh, well, that sounds like so gimmicky, or, you know, that can't be true. And actually, when we talk to with his doctors and his physician team, what we learned is that fully is not any type of miracle by any stretch, it was simply the beginning of a domino effect, which meant when he felt like he was more in control of his nervous system and of his body, he had less anger issues, he was able to go to more of his doctor's appointments on time, get out of bed more, he was able to sleep reduces opioid usage, like I said, get his driver's license back. And then he hung out with his brother for the first time in 10 years. And so I think it shows the power of when you feel like you can take back control of your physiology of your body, you're able to do these incredible things around really connecting with other people again, going and reaching out to family members, even his physician team, his fiancee, etc. And then to take it one step further, what we're working now and fully is beyond that experience of just healing is to actually create experiences in virtual reality where you can connect with other people and be able to share this experience. So even fully now we have an in app community. But beyond that, we're thinking about how can we maybe create the spaces in VR where we could see each other and meditate together? Or do biofeedback sessions together, etc.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 18:46

Are there specific areas of the United States where you focus this technology more than others? Like, is this something that covers all 50? States? Or are you seeing a lot of traction in say, the California market or, you know, the Texas market? Just I'm just curious, like, who's embracing this technology from from the standpoint of the CEO?

Celine Tien: 19:10

Yeah, we have. So initially, so we're based in Los Angeles. So initially, we were like, Okay, we're focused on California first, just to make sure we're really on the ground here. But it's really proliferated to all 50 states and we see people from anywhere from like West Virginia, to folks in South Dakota, to people on the East Coast. So it's really pervasive and I think it speaks to the condition itself. One in three Americans are vulnerable to chronic pain. 50 million Americans have high impact chronic pain. So it's, it's really for everybody.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 19:45

Before we wrap up, I just want to talk a little bit about your past with DreamWorks. You know, obviously, working in healthcare, like we were talking about, is a completely different job than being injured. DreamWorks and being an acting, how did that experience, specifically your time at DreamWorks shape you to develop a company like Flowly and affect the long term care population and people that are battling with chronic illness.

Celine Tien: 20:16

I think the biggest way it impacted me, especially with my, even what I studied in college and growing up and acting is that storytelling, and creating beautiful experiences should be part of health. Because I think a lot of times when you think about health care products, medical devices, even going to your doctor's office, it's a very vulnerable experience, it's kind of scary, it's very intimidating. I grew up with a doctor, so I spent a lot of time around physicians and, you know, depending on their bedside manner, and like you know, who you're interacting with, it can be very, a very distancing and isolating experience. And I think what I realized is, even if you can create the best and most effective therapy, if you can make the most effective medical device, it's not really helpful unless it's something that people actually want to use. And it's easy to use, and it's something that will bring them back each day. And that's why a lot of therapies have compliance issues, right, like physical therapy is incredibly helpful. But a lot of people most people don't follow through with their physical therapy program, because it's painful, and it's scary, and it's hard to do. And so I think one of the things I've taken from my experience and some one of my co founders was incredible designer is to thread in and weave in an understanding that we can create beautiful experiences and health and it's something that can be fun and immersive that you can come back to want to come back to each day. And I think that's why VR is so such a beautiful platform for the biofeedback training we're doing, because the core of what we're doing is teaching you to control your nervous system, but you get to do it while you're like, on the beach, or like another planet, you know, or you're like traveling through a bamboo forest. And that is inherently a relaxing and beautiful experience that I think most of our heroes would say is what brings brings them back each day,

Kosta Yepifantsev: 22:04

are you the Steve Jobs of healthcare is that

Celine Tien: 22:09

I'm a big fan of Steve Jobs, so I would be terrified to even compare myself to him. So I would just say that I think, one for myself, as you know, I'm Asian, I'm a pretty young woman in a very traditional healthcare industry, I think it's been increasingly important for me to speak out more about what we're doing, and about our company and even about our team, because I think we need more voices, like people, like myself and my team members and other people that I admire in the healthcare industry, to, to bring in these new ideas and innovation to really disrupt like, what, you know, what decades and even centuries of healthcare hasn't hasn't been doing for us. And a lot of times, we are helping people that often have been guests lit by the medical industry, you know, people, the 60 Plus community, oftentimes, they're not taken seriously by their physicians and their doctors and providers. And same with women of color. Same with people that have autoimmune conditions, or fibromyalgia where people are like, not given proper diagnoses. So I think it's really important for us to speak out and educate people on different ways to look at health care.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 23:25

How much does a kit cost? Like, if and more importantly, can I go on like a website? Can I go on slowly.com and buy a kit? Talk a little bit.

Celine Tien: 23:33

Yeah. So today, you can go on www.flowly.world which is our website, and then you can subscribe, it's our monthly is$45 a month. And it includes the kit and the servicing. And you can actually when you subscribe, text and call our Health Guide, who can actually onboard you. So I actually teach you over the phone. We're like that rare app where you can call us, we can teach you over the phone how to use it because we do work with older folks. And our annual subscription is 50% off of that. So and we actually are coming out with a family plan because we have so many people that actually share a kit in the family. And then they can separately on their own. Also use a fully app because you don't need to use a VR headset and the sensor every time.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 24:21

How often? Or how much time and a week do you spend on VR?

Celine Tien: 24:27

Do I personally spend in VR? Yeah, I'm just like, if Yeah, I do flowly. So my team and I have a challenge internally. I try to do slowly at least four or five times a week. And usually I'll go through periods where especially when I'm I'm trying to get better better at this myself is if I'm going through a very challenging period, I do fully like twice a day. So that's at least you know, 20 minutes a day in VR. If I am traveling, then I try to do at least once a day in at least five minutes.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 24:58

Yeah. And so You know, a lot of the conversations that I have with professionals on this podcast, we address the mental health crises of our time. And it comes up in pretty much every single conversation that we have. And what I like about flowly is it's, it's able to have a physical tangible application that somebody who who suffers from chronic pain can say this technology works for me. But the secondary piece of this, and the thing that I find most exciting is this can actually help people who are facing that met those mental health crises, and that are going through, you know, anxiety and maybe a depressed state or just in general, like life getting in the way. And I think, you know, I think we can both agree that, you know, therapy is extremely expensive, you know, and I'll be honest, I'm in Tennessee, and I interview people on a different podcast that are from this area, and a lot of them work for the State of Tennessee, and their insurance only covers like a small percentage of and they have state of Tennessee insurance, they cover a very small percentage for therapy services, so it still cost them, you know, 80, to $125 out of pocket to be able to access that market. And so the fact that you have an alternative, that is a duality, and addresses two very important things is, in my opinion, I think transformational and I just I hope that more people will take advantage of this technology and virtual reality in general.

Celine Tien: 26:37

Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate that. And I think that perspective is what I hope more people will take on and addressing, but holistically the body, right the brain, the body, the the mental, the physiological health side of it. And I'll just introduce one last concept, which is, you know, we work with a lot of people that have pretty high impact anxiety, and it's hard for them to get through the day, it's hard for them to get out of bed, things like that. And one of the things that I've learned through an amazing physician we work with is the idea of the bottoms up versus the top down method, which is with mental health, a lot of times we are taught top down methods. So these are things like meditation, mindfulness, that means you start with the brain, the mind to then try and affect how your body feels right. What Flowly does through biofeedback is a bottoms up method, which means we teach you first how to control your body, to get yourself to a space where you can then really start to address your mind. It means literally shifting your nervous system into rest and digest mode, sometimes forcing it into rest and digest mode. So that you can actually really calm down, sit back, even move yourself into sleep state. And then you more open to absorbing these top down approaches. So I think the work we're doing up fully of biofeedback, which you know, you can also do, there are other ways of doing bottoms up methods is a huge supplement. And even first step for most people that have trouble regulating their pain, or their anxiety or mental health.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 28:08

As you're describing flowly like I just immediately I'm like, This is Genius, invention and application. But you know, not to get too technical. But I think it's important. And I'm definitely curious to find out, what do you believe is the biggest barrier for you to become a national international success?

Celine Tien: 28:31

So one thing that has been top of mind for us is the education aspect of it. Because VR is not something a lot of older people have tried, and then much less something, something like biofeedback, right? These are both technologies that and therapies that have been basically gate kept by, you know, researchers and medical community not have not intentionally, but just because it was very hard to distribute it. So how do we share more about it, but also make it so intuitive and easy to use that it just becomes commonplace, you know, for people to be using these new technologies. I think that's something that eventually will be addressed, especially as more companies work on the hardware aspect of making your easier and better to use. But I think we've come across a good solution for our time right now. But I think that's a really big thing is we're one of our biggest focuses on teammates, things that we've had challenges with, to be honest with you is, you know, how do we design the entire experience to be really easy to use, especially the first time you get the kit? And I can't even tell you how many meetings we've had about this is like, how do you make the first time you unbox the kit and experience where I don't feel intimidated because a lot of people feel intimidated by that first time of using VR. And that's why we let people call us now so that like, we kind of like handhold you we have that human Part of that process.

Kosta Yepifantsev: 30:01

You know, I'm always astounded by how commonplace VR is, but at the same time, how few people actually use the technology. And I'll tell you, you know, I think you and I aren't that different in age, we're probably 20s and 30s. So my kids, they use virtual reality, all the time, their friends use virtual reality all the time. And so it's kind of like back in the 2000s, when, like, you know, computers were becoming literally a staple, and you know, iPhones are becoming a staple, iPads, etc, I believe that VR in the next decade is also going to become a staple in the young adult life of, you know, the, the Gen Z, and Gen alpha, who I think will embrace this. And as I see companies, across the gamut on all industries, embracing virtual reality, your applications, especially from a healthcare standpoint, is going to be paramount. So I think it's fantastic. Now, we always like to end the show with a call to action. What's your best advice for someone entering the long term care industry, as a patient as a caregiver? Or an industry professional?

Celine Tien: 31:26

Okay, loaded question, because I think there's so many ways to address this. I would say that, across the board, this is what I encourage everyone to do, is that I think people need to spend more time learning how to breathe correctly. Okay. And I say this because we work with so many patients and caregivers, and lot of times in the care industry, the professionals themselves, the ones giving care, are neglecting their own health and neglecting their own time of sleep and mental health, etc. So that's something we focus a lot on is like, how do we give care to caregivers. And one of the easiest way to start is think about your breath. Okay, I know a lot of people have probably tried or heard of breath work or like, you know, yoga, breathing, things like that. But I'm always shocked that more people don't know about the concept of nasal breathing. So I could give you a lot more lofty answer to your question. I think this is a super practical one to take away with. And, and one of the things that I'm working with some of the top doctors and psychologists is, in this space, we've learned how important Nasal Breathing is, which is breathing in through your nose and out through your nose. Most people today do mouth breathing. And that means they breathe in through the nose, sometimes even in through the mouth and then out through the mouth. And your mouth is not designed for breathing whereas your nose is and when you can start to nasal breathe more and more in your life, including when you're sleeping when you're working even when you're working out. It can increase your oxygen uptake it can increase the your lungs ability to regulate air, help with your energy levels, your sleep quality, your performance, so many things. So when people ask me for advice, I'm like to get started no matter where you're coming in from the field as a professional as a patient, as a home caregiver is to take five minutes every day to just focus on your breath because I can do so much for your mental and physical health. And that's kind of what you need as a baseline to get started into your work every day. So that would be my advice is look into nasal breathing you can do it through slowly but you can also do it like watch YouTube videos look up books and research around it I that's always what I encourage people to do.

Caroline Moore: 33:54

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Now or Never Long Term Care Strategy with Kosta Yepifantsev. If you enjoyed listening and you wanna hear more make sure you subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you find your Podcasts, leave us a review or better yet share this episode with a friend. Now or Never Long-Term Care Strategy is a Kosta Yepifantsev production. Today’s episode was written and produced by Morgan Franklin. Want to find out more about Kosta? Visit us at kostayepifantsev.com